Pedigree to Disagree
We’re not famous, popular, or looking to push an agenda…we’re just related with a passion for dissecting any topic to discover its roots, why it does, doesn’t, or should matter, or simply because it is interesting to us. But, will the generations that separate this dad (Gingy) and his adult daughter (Jacqui) prove too challenging to find a compromise or at least understand a different side to the story? Listen in as we search for an intergenerational connection to our topic which may get passionate, but never disrespectful or uncivil. Our pedigree may cause us to disagree, but our bond will only get stronger.
Pedigree to Disagree
Breaking the Silence on White Male Suicide
We'd love to hear your ideas on a future topic
Why are white men struggling with mental health and what can we do about it? Join hosts Jacqui Paglialonga and her father, Eric Seaborg, in the groundbreaking first episode of Pedigree to Disagree as they tackle the taboo topic of suicidality among white men. You'll gain a deep understanding of suicidality, its connection to other mental disorders as defined by the American Psychological Association, and the critical elements of Thomas Joyner's interpersonal theory, including perceived burdensomeness and loneliness. Through the lens of their generational perspectives, Jacqui and Eric challenge you to think beyond the "how" and ponder the "why" behind these tragic events.
We don't stop at definitions and theories. This episode digs into the various risk factors that put white men at higher risk for suicide, from societal expectations like the traditional breadwinner role to the overlooked mental health struggles of Vietnam War veterans. Explore the impact of specific occupations, adverse childhood experiences, and social isolation, and understand the complex web of relational factors that exacerbate the issue. Finally, we confront societal perceptions of white male privilege and discuss what truly might encourage men to seek the help they need. This is a raw, eye-opening conversation you won't want to miss.
Welcome to Pedigree to Disagree, the podcast where family intersects with society. I'm Ja Palilonga and I record this podcast with my father, Eric Seaborg. Each episode we will explore a topic that may be traditionally viewed too controversial for the dinner table and see where our differences converge to find common ground or conclusions. On this inaugural episode, we will be discussing suicidality among white men. Here is my conversation with my dad. I am curious before I get into some facts like did you know what suicidality was before you saw that? Because I'm not sure I knew what that term was before I took this class.
Eric Seaborg:Well, I never heard that term. I always, you know suicide, that's all you hear suicide, but never heard the term.
Jacqui Paglialonga:I am curious because I think definitions are so constructed, too, around our understanding of the words. So that's because I think definitions are so constructed too around our understanding of the words. So that's why I was very curious about that. And then, when you think about suicide, does that seem like it's a big problem? Like, if you're thinking about the community that you can exist in, does that feel like a big problem.
Eric Seaborg:You know, if I personalize it to me and my surroundings and friends, family, things like that, it's not. In other words, it's not something that would make me worry that it's going to affect me personally, but as a problem, whether it's a global or a national concern.
Eric Seaborg:Absolutely, with all the background that I had, especially being in education, bullying was still a real life, physical thing, and we were starting to talk about the social element of it through the electronic media and when that started to balloon it was a no brainer. To me it was a problem.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Probably in those last few years there, you probably did start to see an uptick in some of these behaviors. To bring us back to the term my understanding now, as I've been taking this class and like doing this journey down this new career path, the APA definition is the act of killing oneself. There's nothing else.
Eric Seaborg:It's the end result, right.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Yeah, like when we think about if you have had anybody in your life, like I think between the two of us we haven't had anybody in our like immediate family, but I know in doing the ancestry we are speculating about some distant relative. And then I think about whenever we hear about something in a celebrity and I've had some people in the peripheral of my world that have completed suicide and I've always wondered what goes on in those moments before, like how do we not know? And I think that relates to what you talked about in your work in risk management. But I've been also thinking a lot about school shooters and I did this whole thing on men. They're the most lethal ones, which are like predominantly white men going into schools with the act of killing themselves and other people, and so I think that could kind of that research could kind of relate to this too. Kind of that research could kind of relate to this too, according to the APA, the American Psychological Association.
Jacqui Paglialonga:I used their definition because they put out the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which is basically the American reference point for mental disorders. I thought I'd use their definition of suicide. They call it the act of killing oneself and then that it ties to depression, substance use or other disorders, or sometimes occurring with no other disorder. That's interesting to me. And if they say it's tied to those things in the DSM-5-TR, which is like the latest edition of it things In the DSM-5-TR, which is like the latest edition of it you cannot have a diagnosis of suicidality. It has to be attached to another mental disorder. So if you were someone who attempted a suicide and you were then going to receive a diagnosis, it can't be that you're suicidal on your own.
Eric Seaborg:That's strange because it's kind of like saying, well, we attach the word like, we attach the word run or shoot or something like an action Right, it's not a condition.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Right, there's a lot of theories emerging in the last 20 years, but I think the one that might encompass the full picture a bit more is Thomas Joyner interpersonal theory of suicidality, which just talks about three components that go into what culminates in this act of suicide and that you know it involves a person's thoughts and their actions. So the thoughts are where you would hear suicide ideation and then actions would be an attempt, or they call it a completion. So I think that that term from the APA only encompasses the actions. I think that's what you were getting at Right.
Eric Seaborg:Yeah, the end result, kind of you know.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Yeah, so so Joyner's theory talks about that a person has in their ideations, their thoughts, that they're a burden on society, and then a sense of loneliness or lack of connections, and then you have to also have this intention to die.
Eric Seaborg:The terminology I always thought about was hopelessness and courage. You know, and maybe that's not the right word, his word is action, and I think that's better.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Also, sometimes, when I think about courage, I think of courage like someone doing a brave act. I've always wondered about that. I'd be curious to know does intention more accurately capture your understanding of suicidality?
Eric Seaborg:Well, because that's the accepted term that most people use, I intended to do it.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Right, but isn't that something we always want to know? Like they go out and you're like why did they do that? Like what is what's going on? You know?
Eric Seaborg:Well, you always try and figure out, because the question is oh, they committed suicide.
Jacqui Paglialonga:And the first question people generally ask the gut reaction is how, how did they do it?
Eric Seaborg:That's interesting because I always think why, why yeah?
Jacqui Paglialonga:Or what was going on in there.
Eric Seaborg:I think that's a generational thing, because it was always how did he do it Right, and it's always he how did he do it.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Oh interesting, that's really interesting. So let's go down to some of the facts from the CDC, do it? Oh interesting, that's really interesting. So let's go down to some of the facts from the CDC. I was blown away by some of these facts, as I've been learning them and I don't know how you feel. I'd be very curious. As of the 2022 data from the CDC, nearly 50,000 people have died by suicide in the United States and, interestingly enough, half as many homicides in the United States, half as many people died by homicide. So there are about 22,000 people by homicide and 50,000 by suicide. So it's interesting. But then take a look at this number there were 1.6 million attempts at suicide in 2022.
Eric Seaborg:How do they define an attempt?
Jacqui Paglialonga:Well, that's tricky. So they will look at hospitalizations I think hospitals have to mark those things and maybe even some police reports. I think they pull from a few different data sources, but I think it is something that is an area that could get a little better at collecting data.
Jacqui Paglialonga:I think that's something that we'll see, but there are anecdotally like we have talked in class about people that prepared for something and then didn't actually complete it. But where do they get that data point? I think that's like a gray area. And then if you bring in like overdoses and anything with drug and alcohol, you know, you wonder does the addiction come because of an ideation of loneliness, or how many of those are? Classify them as accidental? But because we don't know the intention, there's not enough evidence for it. So I think 1.6 million attempts, though, is pretty shocking, but I also was like surprised to learn that there were that many attempts, that when you look at the ratio of completion to attempt.
Eric Seaborg:To me, that's where that courage comes in again. Were they attempting as a cry for help, or was it really an intention?
Jacqui Paglialonga:Right, and I think it's the intention. What is the intention, right? So do they have a desire? Desire goes to someone's wishes, whether you agree with it or not. That's their desire, right, right? And then this was interesting too, which is why I kind of wanted to focus a little bit more on the white male population. In 2022, men died by suicide almost four times more than women, so 3.85 times more than women and there's other data points that agree with that, that say that men are more likely to complete an attempt than women. And then white men accounted for almost 70% 68% of suicide deaths. So that means of that, almost 50,000 people 32,500 people were white males.
Eric Seaborg:And I think that the next round of data that comes out, it'll be higher.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Yeah, I mean that's interesting. Yeah, and then this has been interesting to learn about too that firearms is the leading cause of suicide deaths in the US. Just over 50% of them, 55% of them of all suicides were by firearm. Firearms is one of the top five ways and it is the most deadly one.
Eric Seaborg:Let me ask you something about firearm. If you're somebody who's suicidal and they didn't have the firearm convenient to them, people having it in their house to commit suicide. So if they didn't have it in their house, would they then just revert to something else, you know, slashing or wrist or poisoning or whatever they-.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Right, which are less lethal, means the actual act is very impulsive and fleeting. So you might be in the thinking part of this for a long time and that can be chronically, but the part where you're actually going to go complete. There's research that shows that that's, you know, a more fleeting thought. So when you're thinking about, you were using the term courage or the desire, but the part where you're committing to this act is actually impulsivity to that.
Jacqui Paglialonga:So if you're in that stage where I'm committed to this and you have less access to lethal means in your house or your immediate space, You'll find a way. Well, it's less likely that the attempt is successful.
Eric Seaborg:Successful right. It doesn't mean that they won't want to find a different way.
Jacqui Paglialonga:It just means that they might not be successful and then you can, then as a clinician, you can treat and help work on some of bringing down the heightened emotional state.
Jacqui Paglialonga:So I just wanted to look up a quick statistic and I'll try to do more on this after. But the total number of deaths this is 2019 by firearm suicide in the world was 52,694. Six times higher for men than women and varied greatly across countries. The highest rates were in Greenland and the United States, so that was, while the lowest rates were in China, japan and Singapore. So I do think access to firearms does seem to have a huge Interesting about the regions of the world too.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Right? Well, I don't know, but my prediction would be that those countries that do not generally allow firearms or like maybe have more restrictions on the types of firearms that you can have, probably have the lower rates of it, because the poisoning like we keep thinking about, like overdosing on, like medications, that can definitely be lethal, but there's a lot of times it's not as lethal for a number of reasons. It could be the time that it takes for it to get into a system and then cutting people that use knives, but that's actually not super lethal means of completion compared to firearms.
Eric Seaborg:Yeah, firearms are so definitive depletion compared to firearms. Yeah, firearms are so definitive, right the end result when you get into the areas of cutting and poisoning. And one study I read was about what they called suffocation suicides, I guess that's hanging.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Yeah, any of those kinds. And that's actually. Yeah, it doesn't have as high of a rate, but good, I'm glad you brought that one up too. That's another big one.
Eric Seaborg:That is actually an interesting one. That could probably be a whole topic in itself is the types of these suicides.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Because we've been talking about firearms. I just want to bring up this and I'll put it in my room here.
Jacqui Paglialonga:But you know, I found a research study that looked at firearm and non-firearm homicide and suicide rates between white men and black men in this country. So I just wanted to bring that up because I thought that was interesting, because when you look at that little chart which I think you can see in my outline, but I think in every state clearly shows that the rate is higher in white men than black men. That's where we'll talk a little bit about risk and protective factors. And then in every state except they did look at DC as its own entity, where it was higher for black men but the firearm suicide rate was higher for white men in every other state in the country.
Jacqui Paglialonga:So they looked at it by state but that was pretty clear. There is anecdotal evidence that if you live in a rural area there's higher suicide rates. There's information about how connected you are and all of that. So let's go into the maybe the risk and protective factors for white men. Maybe you and I have talked about different ways to classify people anecdotally off camera a ton you know over the years. But why do you think this is such a thing for white men and why do you think that we don't talk about it that way so much? We talk about like youth or we talk about the assisted suicide.
Eric Seaborg:Yeah, we talk about the age part of it and all that. It's funny that this topic doesn't come up as much and maybe it's just not media, you know, it's just not media excitement yet. But you know, when I thought about this and I didn't have to do a lot of deep thinking, but my gut reaction is always that there were two things, and I think I've felt this way about white men If somebody said, why do you think white men would be more apt to commit suicide than any other race, than any other gender, and my first reaction and this could be the old generational differences and my first reaction, and this could be the old generational differences, first and foremost, as you've talked about with me men are not as apt to go to, in my perspective, to go to get psychoanalyzed or, in simpler terms, men are, I think, less likely to be getting medical checkups.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Right, we're kind of looking at a monolith so that we can talk about these things.
Eric Seaborg:It's like a tough guy, right. You know, it's almost like in the old days. It was the tough guy. I don't need to do it, I can tough it out, or I don't have time. I'm the breadwinner, Right. So I don't have time. And number one if I did have time, it wouldn't be advantageous to my family or my career if I was diagnosed with a mental illness. You know, the fear is I could lose my job. It's funny because we're not as family oriented than when I grew up.
Jacqui Paglialonga:What I'm hearing that you're thinking some of these risk factors or forces contributing into what makes it an issue for white men is number one, this long sense of belief that they have to be the breadwinner, like sort of that.
Eric Seaborg:Uh for a certain age, right, yeah, right.
Jacqui Paglialonga:That's sort of like right after world war two, that sort of mentality, that number two they're they're less likely to seek help medically. I think there's probably data on that too. Like I don't know it off the top of my head, but what? I think I've read that there is a lot of that and, anecdotally, some of the white men that I know are less often to go in and get checkups or do kind of that preventative care.
Eric Seaborg:It's like I'm fine, there is one, I think, point in history in my mind that changed that the Vietnam War. I think after the Vietnam War, because during the Vietnam War I think the statistics of men committing suicide obviously went way, way up. The way they treated the ugliness of war in Vietnam was by drugs. I'll get through this, this mental agony of all this you know, acts of war by just numbing my brain.
Eric Seaborg:And not talking right, Right and then they came home and I'm talking about the United States now and then my feeling was they came home and they were forgotten. They were looked at for their war injuries but not their mental health injuries. I think it was only during the, you know, the Gulf Wars and when that all came up.
Jacqui Paglialonga:The suicide rate among veterans is very high. That brings to another, like maybe a little bit larger point is the type of jobs. That men or white men? I didn't know this, but in research I learned that that people in the construction and mining fields have a very high suicide rate, like higher than other fields. So I thought that was really interesting too, because I also am wondering if there's a measure of if you're able to do something and let's say you have an injury on the job, like I don't know what their work related injuries might be, but like let's say that you have an injury on the job and then you no longer can do the thing that you were doing. I think there's a lot of evidence about that, like atherosidality.
Eric Seaborg:And you can tie to me. You're tying white and blue collar in. Think about what you just said with construction and mining. You know probably the majority of those people men, white men were breadwinners at a certain era In mining.
Jacqui Paglialonga:They are Right, but now the jobs are different.
Eric Seaborg:Construction. It's different now because usually construction is temporary for some, or full time. But in mining, if you're a miner, you're a miner. I don't think you go in there and say, oh, I need a job, I'm just going to temporarily go down in the mine and mine. I think that that's a commitment. And what happens with that to me is that why do you become a minor? Well, generally it's because that's the only thing I know. It's like why are you a mechanic? In the old days the thinking was you're a mechanic because A you know cars really well and you're not so good in school, right, that was the old thinking that ties to the rural-urban piece and I think it's important that we have to look at it from all these angles.
Jacqui Paglialonga:So, like individually, just some risk factors that are known like on an individual, if they've had a previous attempt, they're so much more likely to then have a completed attempt later in their life, even if it's years down the road. That's important to know A history of mental illness, including substance use, which I think you were getting at there too serious and chronic illness so we just talked about that with jobs, criminal and legal problems which could relate to financial issues too, like those kind of all fall under those hardship things that may happen and not knowing how to deal with those things right. There's research that shows that if you have impulsivity issues or aggression, like impulsivity and aggression, that you're more likely to complete an attempt, which might explain some things too. I think there should be more research on impulsivity there too. And then ACEs, which is just adverse childhood experiences. So they say that that's a pretty good indicator of future determinants. If you have a you know, a high ACE score, then you're more likely to have harder lifestyle things in the future.
Jacqui Paglialonga:And then a history of violence individually. So that brings back that bullying piece. You know, if you're a victim of bullying or domestic violence or around a lot of violence, even if you're in a war, anything that's related to violence Then relationally bullying is definitely a big thing. I'm glad you brought that up earlier.
Jacqui Paglialonga:We could do a whole thing on that Family history of suicide so that's interesting to me because a family friend, her daughter, had two young daughters. I don't know if you remember this because I think I saw you right after this happened but she had had a history of mental health issues and then she completed a suicide and I always kept thinking like what happens to her young daughters, Because I think sometimes when I felt very down or lonely, I keep thinking, well, what you have to find another way out of this because your daughter depends on you or your family depends on you. So that need to belong right, or that you are needed, yeah. So I think social isolation, loss of relationships, high conflict, violence, community, so this is interesting to me too. Access to healthcare, so that's that stigma piece a little bit. But also, just like I know, there's less resources in this rural community where I live, so that goes to that same.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Absolutely, absolutely yeah prevalence of suicide in the community. So apparently there's research that shows and I don't I didn't know this, but I think we've talked about it a little bit in class but if there's a more suicides in a community that there's more likely to be more.
Jacqui Paglialonga:So like but I don't know if there's necessarily like a causation that one causes the other, but that there may be a correlation there. Violence in the community if you have a hard time acculturating into it. So, like you and I have talked about this community where I live, that the roots are deep, but it's really hard. I'm going to always be an outsider because I moved here right. As a first generation, so that could contribute to someone like me without other tools could lead to that isolation.
Eric Seaborg:Absolutely.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Loneliness, historical trauma and then society, the stigma we've talked a lot about access to firearms, so that gets it one. And then the unsafe portrayals of suicide in media, which I think you've talked about a little bit too. Do you agree with those, I think?
Eric Seaborg:I do, and actually that when I listen to you talk about them, it just brings up other things Again, know, again. I'm a I'm still a big proponent of education. Are you educated or not?
Jacqui Paglialonga:Could I push back on that a second, or do you? Okay, go ahead. Right. So I know that there's research, I know Malcolm Gladwell talked about this in his outliers book, but that sometimes, if you are of the highest intelligence or the highest level of education, it becomes a lonely world at the top there. Oh interesting.
Jacqui Paglialonga:So I think you could have some of these same risk factors because you are the top of your field, which might explain why the suicidality in celebrities or I get things in musicians and mental health issues, and I think that sometimes it can be a lonely world there. So I don't know that that would be the one connecting thing, but I do think that might be a way for people that maybe work a job that doesn't require as much educational education and a job that does that, you know, the fact that they both might perceive loneliness in their worlds might be a connecting you know what it is.
Eric Seaborg:You're right, because you just you know, you kind of were shedding a different light on it now that makes it seem like that's really not in play. I guess, after hearing you talk about it that way, it's about the ability to socialize with those not around you. So when I think of education and going to college, I always say the college experience right, the college experience. And the college experience really should be about learning to grow up in life. That was the older definition. College should not only educate you but surround you with different ideas, different thoughts, different exposures to different people from different areas and things like that.
Eric Seaborg:Maybe that's what I'm relating to. Maybe that's what I'm really kind of getting at is when you talk about a minor right, minors are usually all in rural towns. There's really no mining in urban areas, meaning that you're going to have a lot of like-minded people there and you know, again, this is me in the weeds a little bit, but pulling back, and you've heard me say this to you before and I don't know if it's because of my education or my exposure to being around other people, but I think the reason why I would be less likely to be a suicidal type of person. Likely to be a suicidal type of person is because I'm always thinking of plan B and I think plan B is because I've been exposed to other people and other ideas and other societies and all you can see other ways you can imagine.
Eric Seaborg:You can see other, like little trails away.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Yeah, okay, but I, so in that framework of education I could get on board with that.
Eric Seaborg:That's what I mean.
Jacqui Paglialonga:No, that makes sense, because if you and I think, that's where that connectedness gets to. That's where that term connectedness, because even if you don't agree with somebody but you connect with them, you can then imagine another world, because prior to that conflict or something, you might not even know another world. So I think that's something to like. Look a little bit.
Eric Seaborg:Yeah, I think that's. That's why it was great that you defined and you reminded me that it really wasn't education that I was thinking about. It was about exposure to other worlds, so to speak.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Right. So you know, I think that kind of gets it. I'm kind of skipping around, but I'm looking down at this. The socio political forces contribute to it. I think we've talked a lot about these things and particularly the pressures that are on white men, and I think, even as I sit here and talk about it, the way I'm predicting that that would come out, if it were to ever be in the media, would be more in almost a comedy type thing. Because here we are, we have this perception of men and you know, you've heard me use the patriarchal society of these men being protectors might not want to, because of the comedy surrounding the way it's portrayed in the media, right?
Jacqui Paglialonga:Oh right, this man needs help with this. You know that idea, so it's like I'm now kind of tying into that last one the rationale for why it needs to be addressed. I think there's got to be a lot of work on the changing the stigma. I always talk with my students and with Patricia. I love to laugh but I cannot stand comedy that goes at someone else Specifically. I think there's a level like I don't like insult comedy.
Jacqui Paglialonga:Yes, I'm the same way yeah to me it just feels like bullying, but you're trying to disguise it as comedy, and so I hear that a lot like almost every day in my teaching stuff and I wonder how many times people's words that they're trying to maybe make someone laugh or find a connection that way that that's not really an actual connection, it's actually a disconnection.
Eric Seaborg:But they don't know that Right.
Jacqui Paglialonga:And I wonder if we're seeing higher rates in white men because they have been perceived in the position of privilege for society. So I would love to do a survey to see, like, just ask a whole bunch of white men like what would get you to seek help. And that's why I'm glad we talked about this, because I think sometimes we don't give dignity to the white male perspective and that everybody is kind of like cogs in this larger wheel.
Eric Seaborg:Jacqueline and I had a blast doing this and we hope you enjoyed it. So thank you again for stopping in to listen to our very first episode of Pedigree to Disagree. We'll see you next time, thank you.
